Nation of Mad Men

MadTalk Roundtable: Why Do African Churches Hate Women?

In our first edition of the Mad Talk Roundtable, Kanyinsola invites Oyin Shoola, Samuel Ijalusi and Pamilerin Jacob to discuss the topic of gender and the way women are treated in the church today.



KANYINSOLA: Hello, everyone. I am so excited to have you guys here tonight.

SAMUEL: Thank you KANYINSOLA. Good evening everyone. The church has always had a problem with gender. This is because the church began from the Act of Apostles, it was preceded by the Temple of the Jews, all the way from Genesis till today. The church took in a lot of culture and tradition from the Jews of which Gender issue is one.

According to study, I learnt the Jewish council would validate the testimony of a boy less than 10 to be valid than the testimony of a woman.


SAMUEL: It was that bad. That’s you will see the historic record of Jesus feeding thousands to be “Jesus fed 5000 men”. They just don’t count women. They believe women are minors.

That is an issue. Unfortunately, these tradition has found it ways into the Christian Society and Churches all through the centuries that at a time women were said could not be Pastors, Apostles or hold Ministerial position.

 However, I can boldly say it is not the will of God or His intention that things are in this way.

KANYINSOLA: So you think Christianity itself has a foundation on Jewish cultural bias?

SAMUEL: Yes. The church was birthed by Jews. Peter the first preacher to lead 3000 Christians was a Jew. The Jewish culture was the culture of the early Christians.

KANYINSOLA: Pamilerin, care to weigh in?

PAMILERIN: OK, thing is…like Samuel has rightly pointed out the Woman has always been invisible in Jewish Culture. Compare the names of women written in the bible, to that of men. There is an obvious imbalance. And this goes deep into the religious consciousness. That is why sexism is somewhat “justified” by people who do not want to let go of their “control”.

Furthermore, consider Ariana [Grande]’s song God is a Woman… the backlash it received from the Christian community is also pointer to the deep problems. I think the story of Eve also paints the Woman as the “evil tempter”. A narrative which is thoroughly reinforced daily

KANYINSOLA: But if the Bible justifies sexism, Samuel you are a devout Christian, don’t you think it should be permitted?

SAMUEL: The Bible does not justify sexism. God does not support the discrimination of women. Let me say this. “The Holy Bible was an account written by people, humans and was truly stated but not everything in there is a statement of truth.”

OYIN: I think just because something is stated as the law, doesn’t make it right. Religion has not been progressive in a way that our world has been. It is funny how the same pastors who want to use a belief and cultural system of 3000 years ago can’t drive a 1990 tortoise car…

SAMUEL: Fortunately for us, the laws are obsolete.

PAMILERIN: God may not support sexism, but the bible which we have, does.

KANYINSOLA: Right. I mean, parts of the Bible even seem to justify slavery, war, rape etc. I agree with PAMILERIN.

SAMUEL: Pardon me… There was a mistake in my words above

OYIN: And I think the idea of “the church” itself, doesn’t allow us to hold individuals accountable for their leadership in it.


OYIN: If the people leading the church are not progressive in their thinking, and in their application of religious beliefs to fit our world’s current demands, then they should be changed. Because not all churches condone sexism and gender inequality.

KANYINSOLA: Exactly. I think many pastors feel too powerful nowadays. So they can do and say whatever they like.

OYIN: The most progressive ones have leaders with improved thinking.

KANYINSOLA: They use their power to subjugate women.

OYIN: Yes and I think there is this new wave of religious gullibility that doesn’t encourage us to ask critical questions too which contributes to the problem of sexism in the church.

PAMILERIN: Oyin, this is where Christians will come to you with the “You are in the world, but not of the world” verse.

OYIN: Lol…

KANYINSOLA: Ah. I was thinking so too.

OYIN: Yet they use the most modern devices. Why aren’t Christians living in huts? Please!

KANYINSOLA O: But that is infrastructure not ideas.

OYIN: Infrastructures are made from ideas. That points to my next criticism of selective Christianity…

SAMUEL: Let me say this. “The Holy Bible was an account written by people, humans and is a statement of truth but not everything therein is truly stated.” Rape, Slavery etc as you mentioned were written but that it not the intention of God.

PAMILERIN: Whose intention then? We sort of need to scrutinize the power behind the intention?

 SAMUEL: Truthfully I must say that a lot of Ministers of old are deficient of certain knowledge. You see any Minister, Young Minister who says or support wrong stuffs should be ashamed. He has a Bible, a strong dictionary, access to Greek and Hebrew translations, Bible Commentaries etc. One must be ready to engage such minister in deep conversation, scrutinizing the power behind the intention of the minister won’t be an easy one.

PAMILERIN: Honestly, this is awesome. And it is the major problem: Lots of folks REALLY THINK THE BIBLE IS INFALLIBLE. They don’t want to question at all

OYIN: This!


OYIN: Until we begin to question certain opinions and beliefs, progress is hard.

PAMILERIN: Although I think it’s not new. Martin Luther also pined that “Reason is the enemy of faith.” So people just don’t want to challenge whatever is in the bible even if it’s sexist ‘cause they think it is God’s whole will.

OYIN: Yep!!!!!! This is hot!

KANYINSOLA: What’s the most sexist thing you have heard in church? Mine would be “No matter how rich or successful your wife is, may you surpass her in every way.”

PAMILERIN: I was just typing a variant of this.

OYIN: As a Christian wife, when you are coming into the home, you should drop all your hats outside the door before meeting your husband….This includes all your achievements and accomplishments, professionally and academically.

PAMILERIN: Also there’s…”a wife that adorns herself too much is looking for something else outside.” And “women were created to solely help”. “If the wife is richer, she is using your destiny.”

OYIN: “You are only destined to help your husband. All other responsibilities fall on him.” Pamilerin, our minds are connected.


OYIN: The worst part is when they now use that virtuous woman chapter to back it up.

PAMILERIN: Chai. That one vexes my spirit ehn…

SAMUEL: Proverbs 13 right?

OYIN: Something like that.

SAMUEL: Funny people

OYIN: I don’t read it because I know I already don’t follow it.

KANYINSOLA O: No. I don’t think that’s the problem. People are intellectually lazy. Instead of building their own ideas independently, they listen to what is already being said as the status quo in their societies. Not because of religion. The average Nigerian opposes war, slavery, inter-family marriage etc which the Bible seems to endorse at times. But they support sexism. Why? Because it is already in their society and the men in power want to promote sexism so they use the bible. And the average person, like sheep, follows. They do it because of culture and use religion as excuse because it gives them some sort of divine justification for believing it, which is intellectually lazy if you think about it. Why don’t they support slavery? Because people who came before them have blacklisted slavery. If it existed now, they won’t have a problem with it no matter what religion says. How many Nigerians fight against premarital sex which the Bible clearly opposes?

SAMUEL: Proverbs 31 rather

KANYINSOLA O: Will check that out.

PAMILERIN: Laziness in thinking.  And also, people who think are blacklisted as “having read too much”.

KANYINSOLA: Lol. But many women support sexism too, right?

PAMILERIN: True o. The conditioning is strong. Women are most often the gatekeepers of patriarchy.

OYIN: Yes. I think this is the most sickening. I also think that women who support sexism are more likely to change their mind if men preach to them rather than if women preach to them,

PAMILERIN: a “pick me” situation?

KANYINSOLA O: Pick me o. Pick me Twitter. Lol

OYIN: Lol. Just fire!


OYIN: And this, itself, is problematic and highly sexist.

OYIN: The mentality that a man knows what he is saying more than a woman does…in discussing spiritual, financial, educational etc content.

KANYINSOLA: That is where the virtuous woman thing comes in. They have preached the idea of a good woman as quiet and subservient. So, women aspire to be just that. The worst part is that those brainwashed women then try to bring down women who don’t follow that “virtuous woman” stereotype.

PAMILERIN: Woah! I never even thought of the underlying reason for that!

KANYINSOLA: I feel you.

OYIN: And I also think that like I wrote in my book…


OYIN: The Silence We Eat…


OYIN: “We teach women that their silence is godly, shows humility and that it connotes respect while we teach men that the absence of their voices is disrespect and weakness. There is no respect in stripping women of their humanization and voices.”

So, they will say something like, we can’t have a meeting unless the man of the house is here… not because he has any particular reasonable or worthy contribution but because his manhood/manliness and presence automatically places value on whatever is about to be discussed….

OYIN: When a man speaks back to his woman, he is exercising leadership and control but when a woman speaks back to her man, she is rude and blah blah blah….It is very problematic.

So it is the Christian thing for a woman to be silent when there is a man’s presence or expectation for a man to be dominant. Even in the church, women are not placed in leadership positions where their voices are heard regarding issues of the church and topics that need to be addressed. The men are the deacons, subbordinate leaders. Pastor and assistant pastors…Women are in the choir… cooking department.

KANYINSOLA: How can you be both feminist and Christian?

OYIN: I want to believe that Jesus was a feminist.

KANYINSOLA: Kindred spirit. We serve awoke Lord.

OYIN: If he had gotten married and given a perfect example of what a husband should be, then more married men will have sense today.

OYIN: Yes, I think of him as Lit Jesus!

KANYINSOLA O: Lol. I’m not there o.

OYIN: I think that feminism itself can draw from true Christian values and beliefs of equality and justice.


OYIN: For example, how the church catered to widows…how Christ washed the feet of its disciples… It was a master doing a servant’s job however, that did not make him less. It can be replicated in men doing chores that have been associated to femininity in some ways.

That you should wash plates and clean the floor of your house, doesn’t make you less of a man. That a woman shouldn’t kneel to you on the day of marriage, doesn’t make you less of a man. That is why I think that feminism can learn from true Christianity.

KANYINSOLA: But that example is disturbing. It still assumes that men are masters.

PAMILERIN: Ok maybe we should tackle the idea of “a man”. Because that line is always thrown about unnecessarily.

KANYINSOLA O: Who’s a man anyway? Saying “it doesn’t make you any less of a man” is to act like there is an inherent superiority and you are telling us, “don’t worry, you can do chores. You won’t lose your power and respect as a man.” Which respect?

PAMILERIN: Wow. Our language has really been cloaked in subliminals. I never saw it in this light.

OYIN: Chimamanda once said something… we need to “unlearn” our sexism… I am in for this part. This is the unlearning….

KANYINSOLA: Nothing can make you “less of a man”. You are either a man or not. You either have a penis or not. Everything else that “defines” a man is just society talking.

OYIN: Damn! It is funny because when we say “as a man”…. we refer to ego and when we say “as a woman” we refer to humility or something that requires submission…


OYIN: I am shutting up waiting for Kanyin to drop another one.

KANYINSOLA: Exactly. Our language is fucked up. I’m so glad I took Philosophy and Language in Year 2. I see through the bullshit of language. Language is how we hide and transport ideas and philosophies. That is why you can internalise ideas without knowing.

OYIN: hmmn…..

KANYINSOLA O: “Obinrin bi okunrin” is a compliment because “okunrin” or maleness is something to aspire to.

OYIN: True. I agree…

KANYINSOLA O: “Okunrin bi obinrin” is an insult.

OYIN: This reminds me a lot of one angry feminist letter I wrote about 2 years ago! It was published on Kalahari.

KANYINSOLA: I remember. We talked about it then.

OYIN: Yes. And even when giving church testimonies about child birth….That is the funniest.

KANYINSOLA: I’m listening…

OYIN: The shocking part is when women begin to adopt this culture of thinking that they are not good enough as females to be recreated through their own bodies. When giving testimonies in some places, I have heard some women say “I have been giving birth to girls but my joy was never complete until I gave birth to this boy, praise the…” Really? It is scarce to hear it the other way around. And everyone in church will applaud hallelujah. It makes me cringe.

KANYINSOLA: True. True. True.

OYIN: It makes me angry in a way I am not supposed to be in church.

KANYINSOLA O: I tell you I once nearly walked out of a church service over something said about women. Samuel has been awfully quiet.

SAMUEL: Can a Christian be a feminist? This is a big question. Thoughtful enough, many don’t understand feminism, some women doesn’t support feminism, and some don’t understand the boundary between feminism and Christianity.

 KANYINSOLA O: Have you guys seen “War Room”?

OYIN: And Acrimony…I almost threw my mind in the bin after watching it. I was angry.

SAMUEL: I’ve watched War Room. I’m yet to see Acrimony.

KANYINSOLA: Let’s focus on War Room.

PAMILERIN: Lol funny enough i haven’t o. I couldn’t. Movies literally affect my mood. So I was scared of watching.

OYIN: Okay…. which part of the movie do you want us to tear apart? All I learned is that a man’s immorality is always excusable.

KANYINSOLA: The part where the woman is asked to not confront her lying, cheating, abusive husband and just be silent and pray for him like a good wife.

OYIN: If someone steals your money, you will stay silent and go and pray…like the good neighbour the lord has told you to be…

OYIN: We like to preach about the humble Jesus as an example but wasn’t he the same person who turned the temple upside down when people defiled it…I also think of the irony in these reactions…we blame women for being too emotional yet we tell them that they can’t show emotions about the things that really hurt them. They should pray to God to forgive them for another person’s sins…

KANYINSOLA: Did Samuel see anything wrong with it?

SAMUEL: For me, I strongly believe if am lying to me wife, she should confront me and question why I lie to her. However, I believe things of such shouldn’t be rushed. Calm down first.

OYIN: Women are told to take responsibilities for men’s faults and problems in their marriages. Men are told to take responsibilities of the victory in their marriages.


OYIN: Women can’t publicly acclaim their marital effort in a way that men are cheered for publicly acclaiming their marital misbehaviour or sins for a lack of better word….it is not enough that we have sexism in the problem, we have to be sexist in the solutions that we propose to the problem. For things to be amicable.

SAMUEL: It shouldn’t be so

OYIN: Have you noticed that movies where the case is reversed, and the woman is cheating never ends well. The man never forgives the woman. The man never goes on marathon fasting for her. We don’t see that in movies…It is pathetic.

KANYINSOLA: Yes!!!!!! They always treat the woman’s marital sins as unforgivable. But the man errs like this, they go: let’s pray for him to change his ways.

SAMUEL: Have you seen Fireproof but where the man takes charge and responsibility for the woman misdeeds?

KANYINSOLA O: Not yet. But it sounds cool.

OYIN: I will go and watch it so that I can be angrier. Lol.

KANYINSOLA: Does God have a gender?

SAMUEL: He doesn’t. He is a Spirit.

OYIN: If we are made in the image and likeness of God, then I think that God comes in the best way you see yourself, to relate to him… Search up Korean Jesus.

KANYINSOLA O: “He” doesn’t have a gender?

 OYIN: Shit. I saw that. Language!


OYIN: I just caught myself as soon as I pressed enter. Some things have just been so built in us…It is problematic.

SAMUEL: Yep. He is address with the masculine gender. That was what was written from the Scriptures.

PAMILERIN: God doesn’t have a gender. But we have chosen to represent “HIM” as masculine in Christianity…because [1.] Jewish culture was deeply patriarchal. [2.] Thus, the symbol of power being a man, had to be the form that God would take. Biko can someone ask, why did Jesus not come as a woman?

KANYINSOLA O: Maybe…because they wouldn’t have taken a woman seriously.

OYIN: It is funny because every time I address God as him, I perceive him as this authoritative figure whom is bigger than me and that I can’t really relate to but when I call God her, she feels familiar.

PAMILERIN: It’s simply power dynamics. The writers of the bible were men. They wouldn’t dare present a feminine God.

OYIN: A bible, time and people that did not recognize women when counting the census will never identify God as female.

PAMILERIN: The Gnostics who spoke of a Sophia were rendered heretics.

OYIN: In my book To Bee a Honey, I wrote that our perception of God is whom priviledge is given in our society.

PAMILERIN: Exactly. 100%

OYIN: Yep! Ta ba wi tan, they will say jesus came out of a woman and man had nothing to do so women are stronger. Bullshit!

SAMUEL: He came as a Man they didn’t even acknowedge him till dates as the messiah. Trust me, if He came as a woman those disciples he called won’t even answer him. The Jews were that patriarchal.

OYIN: Just to pacify our anger.

KANYINSOLA O: “Masculine” is greater than “feminine”. That is their thinking. From now on, I will use the gender neutral “they” for God.

SAMUEL: Believe me, he want you to do that more often.

OYIN: Lol… This is funny but true.

 KANYINSOLA: Pamilerin, God is a wooooman. I’m actually playing the song now. It’s fire. Ariana delivering the gospel.


OYIN: Yep.

PAMILERIN: The comments under that video were so bigoted ehn

OYIN: Even on a lower level, how seriously we take male bosses compared to female bosses.

SAMUEL: ah ah ah/ If some women handle you for work, you go prefer “gentlemen” ooo

KANYINSOLA O: Men have always been seen as the custodians of authority. That summarises everything we’ve been saying.

 SAMUEL: Bible in detailed Exegesis = NO

Husband= Yes in their marriage

KANYINSOLA O: I don’t get.

SAMUEL: The Bible doesn’t say men are the custodian of authority. It could be Man or Woman. They both are equal. There are no differences between them just the body formation.

Now, in marriage. The husband has authority in the marriage and the wife is expected to submit under the authority of her husband. A woman is to submit to her husband and not to any man, her husband only, (she must submit to one person in her life and that one person is her Husband)

In cases where the wife has different opinion on certain things, she should make herself clear to her husband in a most polite way, still in respect. If the husband insists, she should honour the authority of her husband and in doing this turn to the children and teach them the right thing.


SAMUEL: To other men, if she doesn’t agree with them on a certain matter, she should make her opinion known to them all. They must know her point, and they are urge to acknowledge her standpoint or view. No Submission here at all.


PAMILERIN: oya… Let me rephrase this for you. The Bible doesn’t say masters are the custodian of authority. It could be Master or Slave. They both are equal. There are no differences between them just the body formation. Now, in marriage. The Master has authority in the marriage and the Slave is expected to submit under the authority of her Master. A Slave is to submit to her Master and not to any other Master, her Master only, (she must submit to one person in her life and that one person is her Master)

In cases where the Slave has different opinion on certain things, she should make herself clear to her Master in a most polite way, still in respect. If the master insists she should honour the authority of her Master and in doing this turn to the children and teach them the right thing. That is what the bible meant  Galatians 3:28 KJV There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond u nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Sounds like equality?

KANYINSOLA: Contradiction everywhere.

SAMUEL: No. No No. The husband is not a Master. The wife is not a slave. The Bible never taught that.

KANYINSOLA: But the phrasing creates an equivalence.

SAMUEL: During the Bible days. The Jews were under the Roman Empire (galatians 3:28)

PAMILERIN: But…Eph 5:23. Compare with Eph 6:5.

KANYINSOLA: Come see me turning Bible.

SAMUEL: Slave trade was practised then. It wasn’t biblically approved. The bible does not in any way support slavery.

KANYINSOLA: Paul seems to.

PAMILERIN: Exactly…Ever heard of the _Pata familias_?

KANYINSOLA: Exactly the same.

SAMUEL: Eph 5:23 For a husband has authority over his wife just as Christ has authority over the church; and Christ is himself the Savior of the church, his body. Eph 6:5 Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling; and do it with a sincere heart, as though you were serving Christ.

PAMILERIN: This Roman law grouped Women and Slaves together. And Christianity was still a highly persecuted group. However they were able to practice as long as they didn’t go against the common laws of the Romans Which Paul tried to circumvent by saying the Eph 5:23  “For a husband has authority over his wife just as Christ has authority over the church; and Christ is himself the Savior of the church, his body”

PAMILERIN: Basically…after Paul finished talking about wives…he moved on to slaves. Read Peter’s letter too. He used the same approach

SAMUEL: No. If you don’t mind. Let follow the law of Bible Interpretation here. Let observe the passage in context.

PAMILERIN: Ok I’m listening…

KANYINSOLA O: Rounding up…

[9/5, 23:11] SAMUEL: Here Paul was explaining submission. He said to one another’ next he focused on the wives. Note he said inn the earlier verse. Eph 5:21  Submit yourselves to one another because of your reverence for Christ. Eph 5:22  Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands as to the Lord. In verse 23, he was using the authority Jesus have over the Church to explain the authority between a husband and his wife. He said Christ is the saviour of the church.– Jesus became a saviour by  Death, and his Resurrection. That is love, He Died. Now because of his salvation work, he gained authority over the church. As touching slavery…

KANYINSOLA O: How did a husband gain/earn his authority?

PAMILERIN: But are we going to ignore the Patriarchal system that this hails from.? ‘Cause that’s how we started the convo

SAMUEL: Observe from verse one. Paul instructed the Children, Parent before Slaves Eph 6:1 “Children, it is your Christian duty to obey your parents, for this is the right thing to do.” Eph 6:2 “Respect your father and mother” is the first commandment that has a promise added: Eph 6:3  “so that all may go well with you, and you may live a long time in the land.”

Eph 6:4  Parents, do not treat your children in such a way as to make them angry. Instead, raise them with Christian discipline and instruction.

Eph 6:5  Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling; and do it with a sincere heart, as though you were serving Christ.

PAMILERIN: And the idea of submission to one man…is a sort of ego massage And is untenable. Because, the family is the smallest unit of the society. How a man sees himself as superior to his wife DETERMINES HOW HE SEES HIMSELF COMPARED TO OTHER WOMEN.

KANYINSOLA: It’s so obvious this was only rooted in the patriarchal society Paul lived in. He was only reinforcing the patriarchal system and using Jesus to compare to how to maintain that system. Jesus heads the church by practically dying for its soul. How did the husband get this unearned respect?


SAMUEL: He is not admitting that slavery is right, he is instructing the Slaves in the church in Ephesus.

KANYINSOLA O: Eph 6:5 shows that he is not challenging the inequality in his society. He sees it as normal. He could have just said, “Slave masters, stop enslaving people. It is evil.”


SAMUEL: You can say he was only reinforcing that patriarchal system but trust me his intention were not so.

KANYINSOLA O: It wasn’t intentional. Yes.

PAMILERIN: But that’s the thing about morality. It shifts…as we know more.

OYIN: Oshe!

KANYINSOLA O: Paul was not looking beyond his society. We don’t agree with his thoughts on slavery anymore. So why are we still using him as basis for women to submit when he merely restated what was being done in his society?

SAMUEL: Colossians 3:22 (NASB) “Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.” 1 Peter 2:18 (NASB) “Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.”

KANYINSOLA O: My point is, if they actually saw slavery as the evil thing we see it as, they could just say, “Stop owning slaves.” But no, they were stuck in the ways of their time. You get. Do you know how many black slaves were told to be good little niggers and not rebel or ask for freedom based on what Paul and Peter wrote thousands of years ago? If they had followed these verses, blacks will still be slaves today.

PAMILERIN: So true. Peter and Paul’s “good intentions” were not enough.

SAMUEL: If you say this to Paul, then you must say this to Peter. But note, even the Bible proclaims the freedom of slaves. Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:

PAMILERIN: Ok lol Don’t go to old testament. You will end up eating your sentences

KANYINSOLA: Old Testament is just weird. But Samuel’s point still stands.

SAMUEL: lol.. I just had to point that out that even from the old testament… if a slave run away, bible say if you catch the slave, no carry the slave go give the master back.  Let the slave get im freedom.

[9/5, 23:30] SAMUEL: See… the church then were not fine with slavery,

  1. they must have spoke and be persecuted heavely
  2. they gba kamu

PAMILERIN: We would have no need for that if in their piety…slavery was outlawed. I don’t want to bring other belief systems in but consider Jainism. If Jainism was the Christianity of today, we wouldn’t have had the “nigger” situation in history. It practically prohibits owning slaves. Cut off the system from the root. Say…no slavery cos I am the Lord And gbam! We wouldn’t have issues.

KANYINSOLA O: Lol.  I guess we are all on the same page here.

SAMUEL: Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

PAMILERIN: But you know Uncle Paul was going to justify slavery at the end of the chapter. By saying…we are not children of the bondwoman…but of promise

KANYINSOLA: The argument PAMILERIN and I are making: Paul’s direction on women being submissive should not be taken as 100% acceptable thousands of years later, because it has been proven that some of the things he said were just the bias of his time talking.

PAMILERIN: I swear…there’s no point defending Uncle Paul. I have studied Paul’s work a lot. His insights are limited to his era, except the, “love is the fulfilling of the law” parts.

 KANYINSOLA: I appreciate you guys for weighing in. I feel so much smarter already. I won’t be able to put everything on the site bit I’m soooo glad we all learned something from each other. Conversations help us grow and gain insight. This is a perfect way to end the discussion, Tola. Thank you.

SAMUEL: Thank you too for having me here.

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